FMPA Upgrades & pricing

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FMPA Upgrades & pricing

Michael Grant-2
Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several years
and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use several
times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
days before release. Is that something FMI even does?

At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.

Any advice?

Thanks,
Michael

--
There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
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Re: FMPA Upgrades & pricing

wrwaugh
I believe that if you buy the current version it comes with 1 year of free up grades.  So if you buy 15 now you can up grade to 16 if it comes out within 1 year.

Riley Waugh
[hidden email]




> On Apr 26, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Michael Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several years
> and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
> have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use several
> times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
> anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
> still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
> full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
> getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
> days before release. Is that something FMI even does?
>
> At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
> my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
> stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.
>
> Any advice?
>
> Thanks,
> Michael
>
> --
> There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
> just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
> _______________________________________________
> FMPexperts mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au

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Re: FMPA Upgrades & pricing

Jonathan Fletcher-2
And wild, speculative rumors say that it WILL be sometime within the next 12 months.


> On Apr 26, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Riley Waugh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I believe that if you buy the current version it comes with 1 year of free up grades.  So if you buy 15 now you can up grade to 16 if it comes out within 1 year.
>
> Riley Waugh
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Michael Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several years
>> and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
>> have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use several
>> times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
>> anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
>> still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
>> full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
>> getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
>> days before release. Is that something FMI even does?
>>
>> At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
>> my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
>> stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.
>>
>> Any advice?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Michael
>>
>> --
>> There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
>> just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
>> _______________________________________________
>> FMPexperts mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>
> _______________________________________________
> FMPexperts mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au

--
Jonathan Fletcher
[hidden email]

Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
Next Meeting: 4/25/17

Sent from a device not known for spontaneous combustion

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Re: FMPA Upgrades & pricing

Tom Fitch
Best bet is to contact FMI directly.

FYI, FM 15 shipped in May 2016, FM 14 in May 2015.



On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Jonathan Fletcher
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> And wild, speculative rumors say that it WILL be sometime within the next 12 months.
>
>
>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Riley Waugh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I believe that if you buy the current version it comes with 1 year of free up grades.  So if you buy 15 now you can up grade to 16 if it comes out within 1 year.
>>
>> Riley Waugh
>> [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Michael Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several years
>>> and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
>>> have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use several
>>> times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
>>> anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
>>> still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
>>> full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
>>> getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
>>> days before release. Is that something FMI even does?
>>>
>>> At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
>>> my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
>>> stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.
>>>
>>> Any advice?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> --
>>> There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
>>> just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> FMPexperts mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>
> --
> Jonathan Fletcher
> [hidden email]
>
> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
> Next Meeting: 4/25/17
>
> Sent from a device not known for spontaneous combustion
>
> _______________________________________________
> FMPexperts mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
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Re: FMPA Upgrades & pricing

James Ramsey
Yeah, you should definitely check with FMI, because I don't thing the "year of updates" is something that happens outside of volume purchases or yearly subscriptions.  They've been doing yearly releases the last few years, and allowing regular purchasers to get the full version released 11 months after a June purchase just doesn't sound like the FileMaker we all know and love.

For retail/website purchases I've heard of people getting updates to the new version when they purchased (direct from FileMaker) within the last week or two before an update... but even that was something that required chasing them down.

Good luck!

> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:00 PM, Tom Fitch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Best bet is to contact FMI directly.
>
> FYI, FM 15 shipped in May 2016, FM 14 in May 2015.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Jonathan Fletcher
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> And wild, speculative rumors say that it WILL be sometime within the next 12 months.
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Riley Waugh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I believe that if you buy the current version it comes with 1 year of free up grades.  So if you buy 15 now you can up grade to 16 if it comes out within 1 year.
>>>
>>> Riley Waugh
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Michael Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several years
>>>> and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
>>>> have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use several
>>>> times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
>>>> anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
>>>> still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
>>>> full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
>>>> getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
>>>> days before release. Is that something FMI even does?
>>>>
>>>> At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
>>>> my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
>>>> stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.
>>>>
>>>> Any advice?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
>>>> just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>
>> --
>> Jonathan Fletcher
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
>> Next Meeting: 4/25/17
>>
>> Sent from a device not known for spontaneous combustion
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> FMPexperts mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
> _______________________________________________
> FMPexperts mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au

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Re: FMPA Upgrades & pricing

Jonathan Fletcher-2
Man, I would NEVER contradict my buddy James David (as he is orders of magnitude smarter than me), but in this case I have to disagree.

I’m a reseller, and I’d bet my business (catch me on a good day, and I’ll GIVE it to you) on them honoring a year of upgrades.

New “perpetual” licenses always come with one year of “maintenance,” which basically gets you all the updates for a year. Register your 15, and if you don’t get the notice with new keys and the download links when 16 comes out, call them and give them your account or order number and they should send it right out to you.

FMI doesn’t care which version you are running. As long as you pay them every year, you can use whatever version you darn well please for a year. Perpetual licenses can have their maintenance renewed (which is not a huge amount) to give you another year of free upgrades. If you plan on having it for a while, I would make sure you keep it current, because they charge you more to re-up if your maintenance is expired.

And, since they are coming out with new stuff faster than they used to, it’s more worth it these days to let them exact their pound of flesh every year.

Jonathan



> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:07 PM, James David Ramsey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yeah, you should definitely check with FMI, because I don't thing the "year of updates" is something that happens outside of volume purchases or yearly subscriptions.  They've been doing yearly releases the last few years, and allowing regular purchasers to get the full version released 11 months after a June purchase just doesn't sound like the FileMaker we all know and love.
>
> For retail/website purchases I've heard of people getting updates to the new version when they purchased (direct from FileMaker) within the last week or two before an update... but even that was something that required chasing them down.
>
> Good luck!
>
>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:00 PM, Tom Fitch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Best bet is to contact FMI directly.
>>
>> FYI, FM 15 shipped in May 2016, FM 14 in May 2015.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Jonathan Fletcher
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> And wild, speculative rumors say that it WILL be sometime within the next 12 months.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Riley Waugh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I believe that if you buy the current version it comes with 1 year of free up grades.  So if you buy 15 now you can up grade to 16 if it comes out within 1 year.
>>>>
>>>> Riley Waugh
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Michael Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several years
>>>>> and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
>>>>> have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use several
>>>>> times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
>>>>> anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
>>>>> still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
>>>>> full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
>>>>> getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
>>>>> days before release. Is that something FMI even does?
>>>>>
>>>>> At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
>>>>> my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
>>>>> stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any advice?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Michael
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
>>>>> just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jonathan Fletcher
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
>>> Next Meeting: 4/25/17
>>>
>>> Sent from a device not known for spontaneous combustion
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>> _______________________________________________
>> FMPexperts mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>
> _______________________________________________
> FMPexperts mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au

--
Jonathan Fletcher
[hidden email]

Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
Next Meeting: 5/23/17

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Re: FMPA Upgrades & pricing

James Ramsey
Ah, but you see, Jonathan, you have not contradicted me at all…  I specifically left myself an out by stating that this would not happen "outside of volume purchases or yearly subscriptions”.  Yearly subscriptions are absolutely for a year.  :-)

I still purchase my copies in full as updates (get off my lawn!)

I would just be careful assuming that this might apply to other types of purchases.  I had a client purchase a large batch of full licenses (without consulting me) a week before a FileMaker update.  They also did it from their corporate IT reseller, not FMI.  FMI wouldn’t give them the update.  So, caveat emptor and all that...

:-)


> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:48 PM, Jonathan Fletcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Man, I would NEVER contradict my buddy James David (as he is orders of magnitude smarter than me), but in this case I have to disagree.
>
> I’m a reseller, and I’d bet my business (catch me on a good day, and I’ll GIVE it to you) on them honoring a year of upgrades.
>
> New “perpetual” licenses always come with one year of “maintenance,” which basically gets you all the updates for a year. Register your 15, and if you don’t get the notice with new keys and the download links when 16 comes out, call them and give them your account or order number and they should send it right out to you.
>
> FMI doesn’t care which version you are running. As long as you pay them every year, you can use whatever version you darn well please for a year. Perpetual licenses can have their maintenance renewed (which is not a huge amount) to give you another year of free upgrades. If you plan on having it for a while, I would make sure you keep it current, because they charge you more to re-up if your maintenance is expired.
>
> And, since they are coming out with new stuff faster than they used to, it’s more worth it these days to let them exact their pound of flesh every year.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:07 PM, James David Ramsey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, you should definitely check with FMI, because I don't thing the "year of updates" is something that happens outside of volume purchases or yearly subscriptions.  They've been doing yearly releases the last few years, and allowing regular purchasers to get the full version released 11 months after a June purchase just doesn't sound like the FileMaker we all know and love.
>>
>> For retail/website purchases I've heard of people getting updates to the new version when they purchased (direct from FileMaker) within the last week or two before an update... but even that was something that required chasing them down.
>>
>> Good luck!
>>
>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:00 PM, Tom Fitch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Best bet is to contact FMI directly.
>>>
>>> FYI, FM 15 shipped in May 2016, FM 14 in May 2015.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Jonathan Fletcher
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> And wild, speculative rumors say that it WILL be sometime within the next 12 months.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Riley Waugh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe that if you buy the current version it comes with 1 year of free up grades.  So if you buy 15 now you can up grade to 16 if it comes out within 1 year.
>>>>>
>>>>> Riley Waugh
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Michael Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several years
>>>>>> and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
>>>>>> have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use several
>>>>>> times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
>>>>>> anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
>>>>>> still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
>>>>>> full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
>>>>>> getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
>>>>>> days before release. Is that something FMI even does?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
>>>>>> my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
>>>>>> stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any advice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
>>>>>> just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jonathan Fletcher
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
>>>> Next Meeting: 4/25/17
>>>>
>>>> Sent from a device not known for spontaneous combustion
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> FMPexperts mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>
> --
> Jonathan Fletcher
> [hidden email]
>
> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
> Next Meeting: 5/23/17
>
> _______________________________________________
> FMPexperts mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au

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Re: FMPA Upgrades & pricing

Patrick Neame
In reply to this post by Jonathan Fletcher-2
I seem to remember that when we started with Filemaker we bought FM5.5. With FM6 being released within, as I recall, two weeks of our purchase we were given a free upgrade to 6. But I have an idea that I’ve seen 30 days mentioned in the same context.

Patrick Neame

> On 26 Apr 2017, at 18:48, Jonathan Fletcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Man, I would NEVER contradict my buddy James David (as he is orders of magnitude smarter than me), but in this case I have to disagree.
>
> I’m a reseller, and I’d bet my business (catch me on a good day, and I’ll GIVE it to you) on them honoring a year of upgrades.
>
> New “perpetual” licenses always come with one year of “maintenance,” which basically gets you all the updates for a year. Register your 15, and if you don’t get the notice with new keys and the download links when 16 comes out, call them and give them your account or order number and they should send it right out to you.
>
> FMI doesn’t care which version you are running. As long as you pay them every year, you can use whatever version you darn well please for a year. Perpetual licenses can have their maintenance renewed (which is not a huge amount) to give you another year of free upgrades. If you plan on having it for a while, I would make sure you keep it current, because they charge you more to re-up if your maintenance is expired.
>
> And, since they are coming out with new stuff faster than they used to, it’s more worth it these days to let them exact their pound of flesh every year.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:07 PM, James David Ramsey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, you should definitely check with FMI, because I don't thing the "year of updates" is something that happens outside of volume purchases or yearly subscriptions.  They've been doing yearly releases the last few years, and allowing regular purchasers to get the full version released 11 months after a June purchase just doesn't sound like the FileMaker we all know and love.
>>
>> For retail/website purchases I've heard of people getting updates to the new version when they purchased (direct from FileMaker) within the last week or two before an update... but even that was something that required chasing them down.
>>
>> Good luck!
>>
>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:00 PM, Tom Fitch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Best bet is to contact FMI directly.
>>>
>>> FYI, FM 15 shipped in May 2016, FM 14 in May 2015.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Jonathan Fletcher
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> And wild, speculative rumors say that it WILL be sometime within the next 12 months.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Riley Waugh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe that if you buy the current version it comes with 1 year of free up grades.  So if you buy 15 now you can up grade to 16 if it comes out within 1 year.
>>>>>
>>>>> Riley Waugh
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Michael Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several years
>>>>>> and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
>>>>>> have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use several
>>>>>> times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
>>>>>> anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
>>>>>> still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
>>>>>> full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
>>>>>> getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
>>>>>> days before release. Is that something FMI even does?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
>>>>>> my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
>>>>>> stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any advice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
>>>>>> just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jonathan Fletcher
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
>>>> Next Meeting: 4/25/17
>>>>
>>>> Sent from a device not known for spontaneous combustion
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> FMPexperts mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>
> --
> Jonathan Fletcher
> [hidden email]
>
> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
> Next Meeting: 5/23/17
>
> _______________________________________________
> FMPexperts mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au

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Re: FMPA Upgrades & pricing

Darren Terry-3
In reply to this post by Jonathan Fletcher-2
Trying not to step on anyone’s toes…

FMI does not provide maintenance with FG (“finished goods”) purchases of FM software, only with “license purchases” (Volume License Agreement, or VLA; Site License Agreement, or SLA). FG is either buying a box of FM off the shelf at a brick-and-mortar store, or else purchasing individual seats of FMP or FMPA (sans Server) off the FMI web store.

If you go to the FM web store and purchase individual seats of FMP/FMPA 15, you do not get maintenance with them. I don’t see an option on the web store for adding maintenance to your shopping cart, either.

You must purchase FM Server (which automatically makes it either a VLA or an Annual Volume License Agreement, or AVLA) if you want automatic upgrades. With a VLA, you get maintenance for 1 year, with the option to re-up your maintenance at the end of the year. With AVLA, there is no maintenance per se, but because you are “renting” the software on an annual basis, your contract automatically entitles you to receive upgrade releases as they come out.




> On Apr 26,2017, at 10:48 AM, Jonathan Fletcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Man, I would NEVER contradict my buddy James David (as he is orders of magnitude smarter than me), but in this case I have to disagree.
>
> I’m a reseller, and I’d bet my business (catch me on a good day, and I’ll GIVE it to you) on them honoring a year of upgrades.
>
> New “perpetual” licenses always come with one year of “maintenance,” which basically gets you all the updates for a year. Register your 15, and if you don’t get the notice with new keys and the download links when 16 comes out, call them and give them your account or order number and they should send it right out to you.
>
> FMI doesn’t care which version you are running. As long as you pay them every year, you can use whatever version you darn well please for a year. Perpetual licenses can have their maintenance renewed (which is not a huge amount) to give you another year of free upgrades. If you plan on having it for a while, I would make sure you keep it current, because they charge you more to re-up if your maintenance is expired.
>
> And, since they are coming out with new stuff faster than they used to, it’s more worth it these days to let them exact their pound of flesh every year.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:07 PM, James David Ramsey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, you should definitely check with FMI, because I don't thing the "year of updates" is something that happens outside of volume purchases or yearly subscriptions.  They've been doing yearly releases the last few years, and allowing regular purchasers to get the full version released 11 months after a June purchase just doesn't sound like the FileMaker we all know and love.
>>
>> For retail/website purchases I've heard of people getting updates to the new version when they purchased (direct from FileMaker) within the last week or two before an update... but even that was something that required chasing them down.
>>
>> Good luck!
>>
>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:00 PM, Tom Fitch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Best bet is to contact FMI directly.
>>>
>>> FYI, FM 15 shipped in May 2016, FM 14 in May 2015.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Jonathan Fletcher
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> And wild, speculative rumors say that it WILL be sometime within the next 12 months.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Riley Waugh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe that if you buy the current version it comes with 1 year of free up grades.  So if you buy 15 now you can up grade to 16 if it comes out within 1 year.
>>>>>
>>>>> Riley Waugh
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Michael Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several years
>>>>>> and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
>>>>>> have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use several
>>>>>> times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
>>>>>> anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
>>>>>> still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
>>>>>> full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
>>>>>> getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
>>>>>> days before release. Is that something FMI even does?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
>>>>>> my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
>>>>>> stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any advice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
>>>>>> just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jonathan Fletcher
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
>>>> Next Meeting: 4/25/17
>>>>
>>>> Sent from a device not known for spontaneous combustion
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> FMPexperts mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>
> --
> Jonathan Fletcher
> [hidden email]
>
> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
> Next Meeting: 5/23/17
>
> _______________________________________________
> FMPexperts mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au



regards,
Darren

******************************
 Darren Terry
 Pacific Data Management, Inc.
 FileMaker Certified Developer
 Phone: (408) 283-5900 x7003
 Fax: (408) 283-5903
 [hidden email]
 http://www.pdm-inc.com/

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Re: FMPA Upgrades & pricing

Jonathan Fletcher-2
In reply to this post by James Ramsey
Ah, a good opportunity to apply the “smell test.” They were probably not REAL licenses from an actual reseller, but some of those “cheap” licenses you see all over the place. I wouldn’t honor those either. They are cheating. If they paid the right price from a reputable reseller, FMI would have honored them. I have never had FMI not honor a legitimate license.

j.

P.S. I’d probably get LOST in your lawn. You’re too busy making all those great tools for us!


> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:56 PM, James Ramsey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Ah, but you see, Jonathan, you have not contradicted me at all…  I specifically left myself an out by stating that this would not happen "outside of volume purchases or yearly subscriptions”.  Yearly subscriptions are absolutely for a year.  :-)
>
> I still purchase my copies in full as updates (get off my lawn!)
>
> I would just be careful assuming that this might apply to other types of purchases.  I had a client purchase a large batch of full licenses (without consulting me) a week before a FileMaker update.  They also did it from their corporate IT reseller, not FMI.  FMI wouldn’t give them the update.  So, caveat emptor and all that...
>
> :-)
>
>
>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:48 PM, Jonathan Fletcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Man, I would NEVER contradict my buddy James David (as he is orders of magnitude smarter than me), but in this case I have to disagree.
>>
>> I’m a reseller, and I’d bet my business (catch me on a good day, and I’ll GIVE it to you) on them honoring a year of upgrades.
>>
>> New “perpetual” licenses always come with one year of “maintenance,” which basically gets you all the updates for a year. Register your 15, and if you don’t get the notice with new keys and the download links when 16 comes out, call them and give them your account or order number and they should send it right out to you.
>>
>> FMI doesn’t care which version you are running. As long as you pay them every year, you can use whatever version you darn well please for a year. Perpetual licenses can have their maintenance renewed (which is not a huge amount) to give you another year of free upgrades. If you plan on having it for a while, I would make sure you keep it current, because they charge you more to re-up if your maintenance is expired.
>>
>> And, since they are coming out with new stuff faster than they used to, it’s more worth it these days to let them exact their pound of flesh every year.
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:07 PM, James David Ramsey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, you should definitely check with FMI, because I don't thing the "year of updates" is something that happens outside of volume purchases or yearly subscriptions.  They've been doing yearly releases the last few years, and allowing regular purchasers to get the full version released 11 months after a June purchase just doesn't sound like the FileMaker we all know and love.
>>>
>>> For retail/website purchases I've heard of people getting updates to the new version when they purchased (direct from FileMaker) within the last week or two before an update... but even that was something that required chasing them down.
>>>
>>> Good luck!
>>>
>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:00 PM, Tom Fitch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Best bet is to contact FMI directly.
>>>>
>>>> FYI, FM 15 shipped in May 2016, FM 14 in May 2015.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Jonathan Fletcher
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> And wild, speculative rumors say that it WILL be sometime within the next 12 months.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Riley Waugh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe that if you buy the current version it comes with 1 year of free up grades.  So if you buy 15 now you can up grade to 16 if it comes out within 1 year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Riley Waugh
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Michael Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several years
>>>>>>> and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
>>>>>>> have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use several
>>>>>>> times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
>>>>>>> anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
>>>>>>> still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
>>>>>>> full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
>>>>>>> getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
>>>>>>> days before release. Is that something FMI even does?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
>>>>>>> my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
>>>>>>> stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any advice?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
>>>>>>> just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jonathan Fletcher
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
>>>>> Next Meeting: 4/25/17
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from a device not known for spontaneous combustion
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>
>> --
>> Jonathan Fletcher
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
>> Next Meeting: 5/23/17
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> FMPexperts mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>
> _______________________________________________
> FMPexperts mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au

--
Jonathan Fletcher
[hidden email]

Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
Next Meeting: 5/23/17

_______________________________________________
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Re: FMPA Upgrades & pricing

Jonathan Fletcher-2
In reply to this post by Darren Terry-3
You may be right, Darren. I assumed that what they called perpetual licenses was simply buying a copy that had a permanent license to use. Are you saying that that only applies to those who pay full price up front for volume licenses? Not sure about that. I have a client that has a single copy of FMPA that gets renewal notices for maintenance. I think she bought it separately, though, because her Pros and Server are on a different license.

j.


> On Apr 26, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Darren Terry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Trying not to step on anyone’s toes…
>
> FMI does not provide maintenance with FG (“finished goods”) purchases of FM software, only with “license purchases” (Volume License Agreement, or VLA; Site License Agreement, or SLA). FG is either buying a box of FM off the shelf at a brick-and-mortar store, or else purchasing individual seats of FMP or FMPA (sans Server) off the FMI web store.
>
> If you go to the FM web store and purchase individual seats of FMP/FMPA 15, you do not get maintenance with them. I don’t see an option on the web store for adding maintenance to your shopping cart, either.
>
> You must purchase FM Server (which automatically makes it either a VLA or an Annual Volume License Agreement, or AVLA) if you want automatic upgrades. With a VLA, you get maintenance for 1 year, with the option to re-up your maintenance at the end of the year. With AVLA, there is no maintenance per se, but because you are “renting” the software on an annual basis, your contract automatically entitles you to receive upgrade releases as they come out.
>
>
>
>
>> On Apr 26,2017, at 10:48 AM, Jonathan Fletcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Man, I would NEVER contradict my buddy James David (as he is orders of magnitude smarter than me), but in this case I have to disagree.
>>
>> I’m a reseller, and I’d bet my business (catch me on a good day, and I’ll GIVE it to you) on them honoring a year of upgrades.
>>
>> New “perpetual” licenses always come with one year of “maintenance,” which basically gets you all the updates for a year. Register your 15, and if you don’t get the notice with new keys and the download links when 16 comes out, call them and give them your account or order number and they should send it right out to you.
>>
>> FMI doesn’t care which version you are running. As long as you pay them every year, you can use whatever version you darn well please for a year. Perpetual licenses can have their maintenance renewed (which is not a huge amount) to give you another year of free upgrades. If you plan on having it for a while, I would make sure you keep it current, because they charge you more to re-up if your maintenance is expired.
>>
>> And, since they are coming out with new stuff faster than they used to, it’s more worth it these days to let them exact their pound of flesh every year.
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:07 PM, James David Ramsey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, you should definitely check with FMI, because I don't thing the "year of updates" is something that happens outside of volume purchases or yearly subscriptions.  They've been doing yearly releases the last few years, and allowing regular purchasers to get the full version released 11 months after a June purchase just doesn't sound like the FileMaker we all know and love.
>>>
>>> For retail/website purchases I've heard of people getting updates to the new version when they purchased (direct from FileMaker) within the last week or two before an update... but even that was something that required chasing them down.
>>>
>>> Good luck!
>>>
>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:00 PM, Tom Fitch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Best bet is to contact FMI directly.
>>>>
>>>> FYI, FM 15 shipped in May 2016, FM 14 in May 2015.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Jonathan Fletcher
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> And wild, speculative rumors say that it WILL be sometime within the next 12 months.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Riley Waugh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe that if you buy the current version it comes with 1 year of free up grades.  So if you buy 15 now you can up grade to 16 if it comes out within 1 year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Riley Waugh
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Michael Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several years
>>>>>>> and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
>>>>>>> have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use several
>>>>>>> times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
>>>>>>> anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
>>>>>>> still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
>>>>>>> full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
>>>>>>> getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
>>>>>>> days before release. Is that something FMI even does?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
>>>>>>> my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
>>>>>>> stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any advice?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
>>>>>>> just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jonathan Fletcher
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
>>>>> Next Meeting: 4/25/17
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from a device not known for spontaneous combustion
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>
>> --
>> Jonathan Fletcher
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
>> Next Meeting: 5/23/17
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> FMPexperts mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>
>
>
> regards,
> Darren
>
> ******************************
> Darren Terry
> Pacific Data Management, Inc.
> FileMaker Certified Developer
> Phone: (408) 283-5900 x7003
> Fax: (408) 283-5903
> [hidden email]
> http://www.pdm-inc.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> FMPexperts mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au

--
Jonathan Fletcher
[hidden email]

Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
Next Meeting: 5/23/17

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Re: FMPA Upgrades & pricing

Darren Terry-3
Well, Perpetual can apply to either VLA (which is a perpetual license), or FG (which is also a perpetual license). Whether or not there’s maintenance on the contract isn’t determined by whether it’s perpetual or not. It’s determined by whether it’s a VLA/SLA, or whether it’s FG. FG does not include maintenance.

I can’t speak to your customer’s experience without having more details. I do know this: if you go to the FMI web store and purchase a seat of FMPA15 (sku FM150036LL), you do not get maintenance with it and you will not receive a maintenance release notification on release of the next version of FM.

Now having said that, FMI have always historically offered automatic upgrades to anyone who purchases FM software within a week or two of the release of the new version, even for FG customers. This is an unofficial policy, but it’s been consistent since the days when I worked there oh so long ago. I would be surprised if they stopped honoring that policy. But I don’t believe they proactively send maintenance release notifications to such FG customers. I think you have to contact FMI and request the upgrade.

I also know that FMI try to consolidate contracts for customers that have multiple contracts, whenever they can. I’m not sure if purchasing a FG copy of FMP/FMPA initiates a contract or not. Typically, a contract is either an annual license or it’s a maintenance agreement, and neither of those apply to FG. But if a FG purchase does initiate a contract, then I could see this scenario playing out for your customer: if they purchased a VLA with Server and some seats of FMP (which includes maintenance), then separately purchased a FG copy of FMPA (which does not), that would have generated 2 contracts in FMI’s systems. FMI’s system tries to consolidate separate customer contracts into a single contract per customer, as far as they are able. I could see your customer’s FMPA contract getting consolidated with their VLA contract and “inheriting” maintenance.

But normally, FG FMP/FMPA does not include maintenance.


> On Apr 26,2017, at 11:19 AM, Jonathan Fletcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You may be right, Darren. I assumed that what they called perpetual licenses was simply buying a copy that had a permanent license to use. Are you saying that that only applies to those who pay full price up front for volume licenses? Not sure about that. I have a client that has a single copy of FMPA that gets renewal notices for maintenance. I think she bought it separately, though, because her Pros and Server are on a different license.
>
> j.
>
>
>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Darren Terry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Trying not to step on anyone’s toes…
>>
>> FMI does not provide maintenance with FG (“finished goods”) purchases of FM software, only with “license purchases” (Volume License Agreement, or VLA; Site License Agreement, or SLA). FG is either buying a box of FM off the shelf at a brick-and-mortar store, or else purchasing individual seats of FMP or FMPA (sans Server) off the FMI web store.
>>
>> If you go to the FM web store and purchase individual seats of FMP/FMPA 15, you do not get maintenance with them. I don’t see an option on the web store for adding maintenance to your shopping cart, either.
>>
>> You must purchase FM Server (which automatically makes it either a VLA or an Annual Volume License Agreement, or AVLA) if you want automatic upgrades. With a VLA, you get maintenance for 1 year, with the option to re-up your maintenance at the end of the year. With AVLA, there is no maintenance per se, but because you are “renting” the software on an annual basis, your contract automatically entitles you to receive upgrade releases as they come out.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 26,2017, at 10:48 AM, Jonathan Fletcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Man, I would NEVER contradict my buddy James David (as he is orders of magnitude smarter than me), but in this case I have to disagree.
>>>
>>> I’m a reseller, and I’d bet my business (catch me on a good day, and I’ll GIVE it to you) on them honoring a year of upgrades.
>>>
>>> New “perpetual” licenses always come with one year of “maintenance,” which basically gets you all the updates for a year. Register your 15, and if you don’t get the notice with new keys and the download links when 16 comes out, call them and give them your account or order number and they should send it right out to you.
>>>
>>> FMI doesn’t care which version you are running. As long as you pay them every year, you can use whatever version you darn well please for a year. Perpetual licenses can have their maintenance renewed (which is not a huge amount) to give you another year of free upgrades. If you plan on having it for a while, I would make sure you keep it current, because they charge you more to re-up if your maintenance is expired.
>>>
>>> And, since they are coming out with new stuff faster than they used to, it’s more worth it these days to let them exact their pound of flesh every year.
>>>
>>> Jonathan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:07 PM, James David Ramsey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, you should definitely check with FMI, because I don't thing the "year of updates" is something that happens outside of volume purchases or yearly subscriptions.  They've been doing yearly releases the last few years, and allowing regular purchasers to get the full version released 11 months after a June purchase just doesn't sound like the FileMaker we all know and love.
>>>>
>>>> For retail/website purchases I've heard of people getting updates to the new version when they purchased (direct from FileMaker) within the last week or two before an update... but even that was something that required chasing them down.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck!
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:00 PM, Tom Fitch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Best bet is to contact FMI directly.
>>>>>
>>>>> FYI, FM 15 shipped in May 2016, FM 14 in May 2015.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Jonathan Fletcher
>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> And wild, speculative rumors say that it WILL be sometime within the next 12 months.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Riley Waugh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe that if you buy the current version it comes with 1 year of free up grades.  So if you buy 15 now you can up grade to 16 if it comes out within 1 year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Riley Waugh
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Michael Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several years
>>>>>>>> and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
>>>>>>>> have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use several
>>>>>>>> times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
>>>>>>>> anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
>>>>>>>> still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
>>>>>>>> full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
>>>>>>>> getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
>>>>>>>> days before release. Is that something FMI even does?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
>>>>>>>> my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
>>>>>>>> stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any advice?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
>>>>>>>> just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Jonathan Fletcher
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
>>>>>> Next Meeting: 4/25/17
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from a device not known for spontaneous combustion
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jonathan Fletcher
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
>>> Next Meeting: 5/23/17
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>
>>
>>
>> regards,
>> Darren
>>
>> ******************************
>> Darren Terry
>> Pacific Data Management, Inc.
>> FileMaker Certified Developer
>> Phone: (408) 283-5900 x7003
>> Fax: (408) 283-5903
>> [hidden email]
>> http://www.pdm-inc.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> FMPexperts mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>
> --
> Jonathan Fletcher
> [hidden email]
>
> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
> Next Meeting: 5/23/17
>
> _______________________________________________
> FMPexperts mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au



regards,
Darren

******************************
 Darren Terry
 Pacific Data Management, Inc.
 FileMaker Certified Developer
 Phone: (408) 283-5900 x7003
 Fax: (408) 283-5903
 [hidden email]
 http://www.pdm-inc.com/

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Re: FMPA Upgrades & pricing

Jonathan Fletcher-2
Thanks for the clarification, Darren! Let me know when you want to execute the transfer of my business to you.  ::-\

j.


> On Apr 26, 2017, at 2:38 PM, Darren Terry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well, Perpetual can apply to either VLA (which is a perpetual license), or FG (which is also a perpetual license). Whether or not there’s maintenance on the contract isn’t determined by whether it’s perpetual or not. It’s determined by whether it’s a VLA/SLA, or whether it’s FG. FG does not include maintenance.
>
> I can’t speak to your customer’s experience without having more details. I do know this: if you go to the FMI web store and purchase a seat of FMPA15 (sku FM150036LL), you do not get maintenance with it and you will not receive a maintenance release notification on release of the next version of FM.
>
> Now having said that, FMI have always historically offered automatic upgrades to anyone who purchases FM software within a week or two of the release of the new version, even for FG customers. This is an unofficial policy, but it’s been consistent since the days when I worked there oh so long ago. I would be surprised if they stopped honoring that policy. But I don’t believe they proactively send maintenance release notifications to such FG customers. I think you have to contact FMI and request the upgrade.
>
> I also know that FMI try to consolidate contracts for customers that have multiple contracts, whenever they can. I’m not sure if purchasing a FG copy of FMP/FMPA initiates a contract or not. Typically, a contract is either an annual license or it’s a maintenance agreement, and neither of those apply to FG. But if a FG purchase does initiate a contract, then I could see this scenario playing out for your customer: if they purchased a VLA with Server and some seats of FMP (which includes maintenance), then separately purchased a FG copy of FMPA (which does not), that would have generated 2 contracts in FMI’s systems. FMI’s system tries to consolidate separate customer contracts into a single contract per customer, as far as they are able. I could see your customer’s FMPA contract getting consolidated with their VLA contract and “inheriting” maintenance.
>
> But normally, FG FMP/FMPA does not include maintenance.
>
>
>> On Apr 26,2017, at 11:19 AM, Jonathan Fletcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> You may be right, Darren. I assumed that what they called perpetual licenses was simply buying a copy that had a permanent license to use. Are you saying that that only applies to those who pay full price up front for volume licenses? Not sure about that. I have a client that has a single copy of FMPA that gets renewal notices for maintenance. I think she bought it separately, though, because her Pros and Server are on a different license.
>>
>> j.
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 2:09 PM, Darren Terry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Trying not to step on anyone’s toes…
>>>
>>> FMI does not provide maintenance with FG (“finished goods”) purchases of FM software, only with “license purchases” (Volume License Agreement, or VLA; Site License Agreement, or SLA). FG is either buying a box of FM off the shelf at a brick-and-mortar store, or else purchasing individual seats of FMP or FMPA (sans Server) off the FMI web store.
>>>
>>> If you go to the FM web store and purchase individual seats of FMP/FMPA 15, you do not get maintenance with them. I don’t see an option on the web store for adding maintenance to your shopping cart, either.
>>>
>>> You must purchase FM Server (which automatically makes it either a VLA or an Annual Volume License Agreement, or AVLA) if you want automatic upgrades. With a VLA, you get maintenance for 1 year, with the option to re-up your maintenance at the end of the year. With AVLA, there is no maintenance per se, but because you are “renting” the software on an annual basis, your contract automatically entitles you to receive upgrade releases as they come out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 26,2017, at 10:48 AM, Jonathan Fletcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Man, I would NEVER contradict my buddy James David (as he is orders of magnitude smarter than me), but in this case I have to disagree.
>>>>
>>>> I’m a reseller, and I’d bet my business (catch me on a good day, and I’ll GIVE it to you) on them honoring a year of upgrades.
>>>>
>>>> New “perpetual” licenses always come with one year of “maintenance,” which basically gets you all the updates for a year. Register your 15, and if you don’t get the notice with new keys and the download links when 16 comes out, call them and give them your account or order number and they should send it right out to you.
>>>>
>>>> FMI doesn’t care which version you are running. As long as you pay them every year, you can use whatever version you darn well please for a year. Perpetual licenses can have their maintenance renewed (which is not a huge amount) to give you another year of free upgrades. If you plan on having it for a while, I would make sure you keep it current, because they charge you more to re-up if your maintenance is expired.
>>>>
>>>> And, since they are coming out with new stuff faster than they used to, it’s more worth it these days to let them exact their pound of flesh every year.
>>>>
>>>> Jonathan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:07 PM, James David Ramsey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, you should definitely check with FMI, because I don't thing the "year of updates" is something that happens outside of volume purchases or yearly subscriptions.  They've been doing yearly releases the last few years, and allowing regular purchasers to get the full version released 11 months after a June purchase just doesn't sound like the FileMaker we all know and love.
>>>>>
>>>>> For retail/website purchases I've heard of people getting updates to the new version when they purchased (direct from FileMaker) within the last week or two before an update... but even that was something that required chasing them down.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck!
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 1:00 PM, Tom Fitch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best bet is to contact FMI directly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FYI, FM 15 shipped in May 2016, FM 14 in May 2015.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Jonathan Fletcher
>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>> And wild, speculative rumors say that it WILL be sometime within the next 12 months.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 11:32 AM, Riley Waugh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I believe that if you buy the current version it comes with 1 year of free up grades.  So if you buy 15 now you can up grade to 16 if it comes out within 1 year.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Riley Waugh
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 10:48 AM, Michael Grant <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several years
>>>>>>>>> and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
>>>>>>>>> have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use several
>>>>>>>>> times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
>>>>>>>>> anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
>>>>>>>>> still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
>>>>>>>>> full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
>>>>>>>>> getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
>>>>>>>>> days before release. Is that something FMI even does?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
>>>>>>>>> my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
>>>>>>>>> stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any advice?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Michael
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
>>>>>>>>> just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Jonathan Fletcher
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
>>>>>>> Next Meeting: 4/25/17
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from a device not known for spontaneous combustion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jonathan Fletcher
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
>>>> Next Meeting: 5/23/17
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> Darren
>>>
>>> ******************************
>>> Darren Terry
>>> Pacific Data Management, Inc.
>>> FileMaker Certified Developer
>>> Phone: (408) 283-5900 x7003
>>> Fax: (408) 283-5903
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://www.pdm-inc.com/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> FMPexperts mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>>
>> --
>> Jonathan Fletcher
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
>> Next Meeting: 5/23/17
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> FMPexperts mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>
>
>
> regards,
> Darren
>
> ******************************
> Darren Terry
> Pacific Data Management, Inc.
> FileMaker Certified Developer
> Phone: (408) 283-5900 x7003
> Fax: (408) 283-5903
> [hidden email]
> http://www.pdm-inc.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> FMPexperts mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au

--
Jonathan Fletcher
[hidden email]

Kentuckiana FileMaker Developers Group
Next Meeting: 5/23/17

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Re: FMPA Upgrades & pricing

Brian Hall
In reply to this post by Michael Grant-2
   When FileMaker 15 was released, it was 45 days for free upgrades (for single user licenses).


  Search the FileMaker Knowledge Base for “free upgrade.”


http://help.filemaker.com/app/answers/list/st/5/kw/free%20upgrade/page/1/r_date/~any~



Brian


>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:48:39 -0500
> From: Michael Grant <[hidden email]>
> To: Filemaker Experts <[hidden email]>
> Subject: FMPA Upgrades & pricing
> Message-ID:
> <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several years
> and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
> have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use several
> times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
> anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
> still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
> full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
> getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
> days before release. Is that something FMI even does?
>
> At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
> my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
> stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.
>
> Any advice?
>
> Thanks,
> Michael
>
> --
> There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
> just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
>

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Re: FMPA Upgrades & pricing

Michael Grant-2
45 days actually seems pretty generous. A developer friend e-mailed their
sales department for me and got more or less the same answer, i.e. they've
offered free upgrades for recent single-license buyers upon release of a
new version in the past, but won't commit to doing it again next time. I
just don't understand why they won't guarantee it up-front. Most other
software publishers offer free upgrades in that situation as a matter of
policy — it's good for the seller because it eliminates a reason for buyers
to delay their purchase. Which is precisely the situation I'm in. If I buy
now, I risk that they won't repeat the free upgrade for recent purchases
and having to pay twice to get the latest version. If I wait, I risk my
previous license being too old to qualify for upgrade pricing. What
business sense does it make for them to leave me with this uncertainty?

Michael


On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Brian Hall <[hidden email]> wrote:

>    When FileMaker 15 was released, it was 45 days for free upgrades (for
> single user licenses).
>
>
>   Search the FileMaker Knowledge Base for “free upgrade.”
>
>
> <a href="http://help.filemaker.com/app/answers/list/st/5/kw/free%">http://help.filemaker.com/app/answers/list/st/5/kw/free%
> 20upgrade/page/1/r_date/~any~
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 09:48:39 -0500
> > From: Michael Grant <[hidden email]>
> > To: Filemaker Experts <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: FMPA Upgrades & pricing
> > Message-ID:
> >       <CAJ7Q-ViWrYTdymLLeqXYY56FfF9FPn4xLpj
> [hidden email]>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > Thinking about plunging back into Filemaker development after several
> years
> > and I'm wondering whether it makes sense to buy an FMPA 15 upgrade now. I
> > have a solution built in FMPA 11 (I know, I know) that I still use
> several
> > times a week, and I have a license for FMPA 13 that I never really did
> > anything with. I notice on the FMI website that 13 is the latest version
> > still eligible for upgrade pricing, so I'm afraid I may be stuck paying
> > full price if I wait till 16 is released. I don't notice anything about
> > getting an automatic upgrade to 16 if I purchase 15 within 30 (60? 90?)
> > days before release. Is that something FMI even does?
> >
> > At least at first this will be for hobbyist tinkering and internal use in
> > my one-person business, so at least initially there will be no revenue
> > stream to offset the cost, and saving a few hundred bucks does matter.
> >
> > Any advice?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Michael
> >
> > --
> > There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We
> basically
> > just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> FMPexperts mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au
>



--
There's really no such thing as translating. It's all a scam. We basically
just make stuff up and try to make it sound plausible.
_______________________________________________
FMPexperts mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.ironclad.net.au/listinfo.cgi/fmpexperts-ironclad.net.au